R. P. Sisodia, Joint Secretary of Higher Education, Ministry of Human Resource Development says skill development is crucial to reap the benefit of demographic divided in conversation with Mohd Ujaley

How has been your experience as an IAS officer officer so far?

My experience has been good.  While working in Andhra Pradesh, I held several positions including that of district collector. I also got an opportunity to work as Secretary, The Andhra Pradesh Board of Intermediate Education, for three years and there I realised that there was lot of scope for improvement in higher education sector and that really made me curious and interested in education sector. I am happy with what I have been able to do so far but I feel there are lot more to be done.

Majority of Government programmes are directed towards raising the enrolment ratio in education institutions but we are lagging in quality. How we can balance between quality and quantity?

I think, we need to keep focusing on the expansion of the system since the present Gross Enrolment Ration (GER) is nowhere near either the world average or Asian average. Every country is struggling with these two competing demands of quality and quantity but one cannot say they are replacement or substitute. One can actually pursue both the goals together.

The expansion should always be accompanied by the quality improvements that are needed. We should not ever think that if we start pursuing the goal of quality then we cannot pursue the objective of increasing enrolment. Since, the fact remain that today only 18 out 100 eligible age group students are pursuing the higher education and rest are not. That shows that in the longer run in the economy, if we don’t increase the GER, we would be churning out unemployable youth who will not have the necessary qualifications or intellectual ability to manage or negotiate their lives.

Quality is a continue process. Quality cannot be measured in the absolute terms rather it shall be measured in the relative terms. We cannot say that we should get the highest quality for each institution but we must ensure basic threshold of quality for every institutions so that we are able to assure minimum learning environment for all the students.

Quality is also pyramidical in nature. You cannot think of reaching to the top without having a solid base. The goals such as access, expansion and inclusion must be pursued along with assuring minimum quality standards.

In terms of high quality, we have globally reputed institutions, regardless of how they are rated or ranked. It is the fact that they can compete with any good institutions in the world. In fact the graduate comes out of these institutes are readily globally employable. It is not that we do not have quality but what we are trying to say that let us ensure minimum threshold of quality for each and every students and institutions.

The Gross Enrolment Ration (GER) of SC and ST in higher education has substantially gone down to 7.4% and 2.9% respectively; it means we are not keeping the national commitment made to them, why it is so?

When it comes to the enrolment of the deprived sections, the problem is of supply and demand gap. Good quality education is not available in convenient reach of student, predominantly in tribal area. Even if they are available they are of sub standard quality. There is a supply side issue that we need addressed by creating more institutes in the area which are predominantly populated by the deprived section that includes minority. Along with SC and ST, the minority GER is also very less.

So we need to first address the supply gap. Then there is a demand problem also due low or no paying capacity of the people. Even if we waive of tuition fee, there are other expenses such as travelling expenses, pocket expenses which has to be taken into account. The NSSO survey says that 21 percent of these students do not pursue higher education only because they don’t have financial capacity to pursue higher education. The paying capacity has to be enhanced. It can be enhanced by two ways, by giving free education, scholarships, fellowships and enable them to obtain education loans. By filling these two gaps of supply and demand, they can be brought at par with the GER of others, else it will not happen.

To reap the benefit of population dividend, the role of education becomes very important in channelising the energy of young people in the right direction. Where do you see us, are we on right track or do we need to change the gear?

I believe, at times, we do need to change the gear also. As per recent survey, every year 13 million people are joining the workforce. Out of that only two percent are formally skilled or trained. In the last five years employment generation has declined. Only 1.25 million jobs were added between 2004-05 to 2009-10. It means around 60 million had joined in five years but only 1.25 percent had got the formal employment in the formal sector. Now if you do not bridge this gap then this dividend can become nightmare also. We need ensure that more people pursues the higher education but also get the required skills. Skill development is a big challenge to us. If we are able to overcome this challenge then 500 million people joining by 2022 will be skilled, then nothing can stop India’s progress.

In Informal sector, lot of jobs have been created but they are again looking at skilled manpower. The bigger challenge is that how we assess the demand of skills in the market. How do we impart the relevant job skills to the people, how do reorient our entire vocational and skill education sector by integrating it into higher education on one hand and by ensuring that it is auto updated and completely in sync with market demand. If we are able to address these challenges appropriately, then definitely our youth will be our strength.

NCERT is in the process of becoming the Institution of National Importance which will empower it to be more flexible and offer degree courses says Prof Parvin Sinclair, Director, National Council of Educational Research & Training (NCERT) in conversation with Mohd Ujaley

NCERT was established in 1961 in the backdrop of school system struggling to disengage from its elitist colonial past and create common programme which is universally accessible and reflect the pluralist character of India. How successful has NCERT been so far?

NCERT was formed in 1961 by merging seven bodies that already existed, so our agenda was determined largely by the objectives of those seven bodies. Initially, we were called the research and training body. Our job from the beginning was to look at all aspects of school education, from inside activity of classrooms to outside implications of it. So there have been four curriculum frameworks formed over the years as part of meeting these objectives.

Over the years we were supporting the Government in providing the universal education which was always there as Universalised elementary education scheme but without it being formalised or pushed through like in RTE. However, the Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan and before that Diploma in Primary Education (DPE), we were all working towards this.

Jawaharlal Nehru vision was that everyone should have a scientific tempo. So accordingly all curricular were meant for bringing everybody to class room.  However, we agree that ground realities are different. Since we are National Advisory Body under Ministry of Human Resource Development (MHRD), the central body can only advice the State Government as education is the concurrent subject. So what we proposed can be taken with a complete spirit or partly or may be not at all by states, that is why the RTE came into being and you can see the great changes it has brought in the last three years. Moreover now under the act, everyone has to deliver, although we have not reached 100 percent access, but we are much nearer there than three years ago and a short way to go still in terms of access.

In terms of quality we are far short of that, yes we have put out curricular framework, suggested model test books, and have created model resources at the NCERT for the country, be it educational kits, the science kits, the mathematics kits and the CCE (Continuous and Comprehensive Evaluation) package. I feel, we should probably have done it in 2006, what we have put out now and we have send it to every SCERT (The State Council Educational Research and Training) to take forward.

Some of the States s are not able to implement some of the provisions of RTE due to various reasonable reasons and they complain that the diversity of regions have not been taken into account? How do you look at it?

There is a lot of levy given in the RTE, it’s just a broad guideline for all the states, for example it says that you need a rap then the rap does not give you access to the differently abled students. A lot of things which are said are not happening and things that are not said are actually happening. It is just the spirit of it. You talk about playground, I say that share it with the nearby schools. Toilets and water are the basic needs of a school and if you are not providing it then how can you call it a school. If you are shoving people in to 2/5 area with just a black board and you call it a school and still you say do not shut it down. I believe these are slum schools which you are giving and you are saying that this is the way out then I don’t agree to it.

Creation of climate of acceptance and thinking differently for different sects of people is very important.  Does that also get reflected in the NCERT vision?

The National Curriculum Framework (NCF) 2005 absolutely ensures that each individual level is going to each child which is given opportunity to grow based on her experience. That is what, it is about and that is why it is difficult to bring to the classroom because each has a different back ground. Curriculum is not about reading writing and assessment that is an old colonial view. It’s about growing as a person, how to care about others and bringing values to people, building the health mental as well as physical, allowing them to work on cultural and social front. Making people learn how to share with others and being included and including others.  Be it a girl child or the boy child, they should get equal opportunities and should be confident about it and that is my NCF 2005 vision, so definitely diversity gets reflected in our vision.

How have been your focus in helping and assisting Madarsa and Maktab and other linguistic and religious minority intuitions in reforming their curriculum?

As I earlier mentioned, education is a concurrent subject, so role of state governments become very important in assisting Madarsa and Maktab and other linguistic and religious minority intuitions. We provide a curriculum and it depends on the Madarsa groups also to take it or not, but what we have found in our studies that the Madarsas are actually going beyond the religious text books and getting involved in modern education. The Madarsas are now teaching basics of computers and even English.

Most of us are talking about ICT to the extent that ICT itself has become a subject, however, it should be enabling students to learn other main stream subjects easily and effectively. What should be the role of ICT in your opinion?

Precisely, what you have mentioned that it should be enabler. ICT is not just power point presentation, it is beyond that. We have started a project called NROER (The National Repository of Open Education Resources) and the idea is to allow children to see from the repository of NROER. People can add to these resources which will be review before being put to NROER, so by that way teachers are enabled to create what is actually needed. That is what the role of ICT should be.

What are some of the works which you are doing at NCERT and what are your future plans?

At present we are in the process of becoming the Institution of National Importance which requires the Parliament clearance so we are in the process of getting that bill drafted. The reason for that there is so many plans that requires flexibility. NCERT is a club of eight big institutes like National Institute of Education, Central Institute of Education and Technology and apart from these we have five regional institute of education plus we have the Central Institute of Vocational Education so totally we are eight. NCERT is the council overarching body which looks after these institutes. So if this conglomerate becomes the intuition of national importance, you can imagine the kind of empowerment which all the regions will get. So this is one plan we are working on right and there are other areas also where we are focusing and hope to do bring good results.

ICT in education, if implemented with proper infrastructure and trained teachers has potential to bring revolutionary changes in the way we impart education in our country says education minister of Rajasthan, Brij Kishore Sharma in conversation with Mohd Ujaley.

You have been education minister of Rajasthan since last one and half years. How has been your experience and what are the critical areas that need immediate attention?

My experience as an education minister has been good. As you mentioned, it has only been one and half years, however I must tell you that it is not the duration of your tenure but your approach to work should be important. I feel, whatever I could have done as Minister in these years, I have done and I am quite satisfied with it but there are lot to focus on.

In Rajasthan, we are giving special emphasis to girl’s education. We are providing various benefits of welfare schemes initiated by central as well as state government. We have distributed cycles to students, we are also offering Priyadarshini Puraskar to meritorious girl students­, Kasturba Gandhi Balika Vidyalayas are also doing good work. All of these have yielded better result for us, now large number of girls appearing in board exams.

Your department initiated first phase of ICT implementation in Aug, 2008 and now you are entering into third phase. Where do you see ICT in education today?        

I think, Information and Communication Technology (ICT) in education is an asset. The old of way teaching has to be changed. When Former Prime Minister, Rajiv Gandhi expressed his desire to bring computer to India, some people laughed at him but look at today’s life, you can’t imagine a day without computer or mobile phone. Similarly, ICT in education, if implemented with proper infrastructure and trained teachers has potential to bring revolutionary changes in the way we impart education in our country. However, the sad reality is that we do not have adequate infrastructure and enough trained teachers, even in the cities, we are struggling to provide continue supply of electricity and in rural areas, we have a long way to go.

As far as Rajasthan is concerned, we are trying to provide modern technologies such as computer, laptop, smart-boards etc. to schools in phase-wise manner. We understand the potential of ICT in education and our aim is to be self-dependent for electricity, if we are able to do so, rest will fall in line. Today, large number of us uses smartphone very smoothly, so if a teacher can use a smartphone, why can’t he use smart-board? Definitely, he can but we need to provide basic infrastructure to the teachers.

Some of recent violence, especially against women compelled Prime Minister’s Office to ask the Ministry of Human Resource Development (MHRD) to emphasise teaching moral science at the school level and include chapters on value education in textbooks. Do you agree that value is eroding from society and our education system has failed to address it?

I may agree and may not agree with you but that is not a point, but for sure, we all understand that our society is going through a period of change. We are young country; more than 65% population of India is going to be below 30 years of age. These young people are quick and fast, they have access to all the modern technologies. Their aspiration and way of life is different from my generation. So definitely value system is also changing and we know that certain things are missing and it is the collective responsibility of parents, teachers and society at large to correct it. Teachers or syllabus in school alone cannot do it.

However, I agree that we need to emphasise teaching moral science at the school level and include chapters on value education in textbooks, it will helps us inculcating right values in our young generation.

There are bills which are directed toward raising the quality of education in India are pending in Parliament because states are opposing it on the issue of federalism, hence not allowing it to be passed, why it is so? Is the quality more important to you or federal structure?

Both are very important. Government of Rajasthan has not opposed any of the bills; therefore it is very clear that we need quality in education. However, these bills are for higher education. I feel, we should focus on quality education from KG and LKG. If, we have quality education at early stage, it will help us in translating it to higher education. It is also true that even after allowing private organisations to set-up higher education institute in the country, we are still struggling to provide access and quality in higher education.

Acceptance of the latest technology is so high that in most of the schools in Maldives, internet based learning is promoted by the parents, with their own funding, they have provided TV, Smart-board, Computer etc. to schools says Dr Asim Ahmed, Minister of Education of Maldives in conversation with Mohd Ujaley.

Majority of South Asian countries are yet to address the problem of literacy, electricity and acceptance of new technology, in such a scenario where do you see ICT in education?

Using information technology to enhance the quality of the education and also teaching it as a subject in the classroom is very important. Many countries including Maldives have introduced information technology as a subject in the classroom. I agree, there are many challenges related to infrastructure, however, we are fortunate that Maldives has electricity in the all the areas, has good internet connectivity, some remote area may have little difficulty with regard to speed of the internet connection, but basic connectivity is there, or can be enhanced without so much additional investment. As far as mass acceptance of the new technology is concerned, in Maldives, it is very high, it is so high that in most of the schools in Maldives internet based learning is promoted by the parents, with their own funding, they have provided TV, Smart-board, Computer etc. to schools.

Government does not have the capacity to provide all the modern facilities to all the schools. Government provides the minimum basic facilities to all the schools such as good infrastructure, quality teachers, text book, and other essential elements to the school. It is the parents who have taken the initiative in promoting ICT based education in schools.

In last few years, gross enrolment ratio across South Asia has improved but not the quality. How do you look at Maldives in that context?

In the case of Maldives, we have 100% enrolment, so all the kids who are supposed to be in the school, are in the school, but today the issue is the quality of the education.  In Maldives, we prepare for Cambridge O level examination, and also for Edexcel A level examination, so our syllabus is geared towards English medium education. Majority of the students study in English medium education, prepare for these external examination, for them passing these examination is very crucial, and that can only be done if the quality of the education is high.

Quality of education crucially depends on quality of teachers, so to improve the quality of education first thing we should do is to improve the quality of the teachers. We have initiated many teachers development programme for both in service teachers and also for those who want to enter into the profession. Now universities and colleges are offering degree level training for educated professionals. This will gradually improve the quality and will reflect upon the performance of the students.

In Maldives, most of the teachers at the primary level are Maldivians now, at secondary level, we still depend on expatriate teachers. Government has improved the infrastructure hugely in last couple of years to enhance the capacity of the schools. Most of the schools are have a single session. This has greatly improved the quality of the education, because now students are able to have more time, outside schools hours to indulge in various other educational activities.

In 2000, Government introduced Maldives Accreditation Board (MAB) to standardise the quality of education across the board, are you happy with outcome of MAB?

So far, we are happy with the outcome. The main purpose of the MAB was to improve the standard of education especially at post-secondary level. Especially, this has been very important for the private sector.  In Maldives, higher education is largely dominated by private sector. Government is not investing very heavily in higher education. Government has a National University apart from that much of the higher education is provided by private organisations. MAB has helped us in monitoring and providing uniform standard to all these organisations. MAB has set various parameters for the private organisations to get accredited, this also translates into international acceptance.

Traditionally, most of the Maldivians have gone abroad for higher education, what is the present scenario of higher education in Maldives?

It is true, traditionally, most of the Maldivians have gone abroad for higher education, but with establishment of the higher education institutes in the country, many students are able to obtain higher education in the country for the fraction of the cost they will pay abroad, but this is only for the courses which are available in Maldives. Many of the courses are still not available, so for those people still have to go to abroad, now the private sector in that sense is competing with regional centre, such as Malaysia where majority of Maldivians go for higher education. So now most of the private institutes are having twining arrangements with Malaysian university or with other university that also helps in improving the quality.

Maldives National University has grown up and now it is fully an independent university, they provide education and training in all areas of social science. In science education, we still have to work very hard, still, a long way to go.

Centre for Continuing Education and Education Development Centre have been merged to become the National Institute of Education. It will continue to provide curriculum, research and other activity and most importantly now they will provide the diploma level courses to the teachers who are in the services by using the existing infrastructure. We have teacher resource centre, some of them will now act as training centre for NIE. So, a good many development works in higher education in Maldives is in progress.

You mentioned about social science and science education in Maldives, but how do you look at Arabic education given the fact very recently you visited Madhrasathul Arabiyyathul Islaamiyya?

Madhrasathul Arabiyyathul Islaamiyya has gone through various changes, it has shifted to new campus with modern facilities. Although, some work are unfinished but still we see a record enrolment in Arabiyya schools. It is so high that we have to take schools in two sessions; this shows how parents are interested in Arabic education because it is the only school that provides education in Arabic medium, according to Al-Azhar syllabus. Much of the enrolment has increased from grade one, so a large number of new students have entered the school, so definitely down the line we will find flourishing Arabic education in the Maldives.

Fishing is considered as the lifeblood of Maldives, it is the second main industry of Maldives. Do you have any plan or roadmap to educate and train the local fishermen?

I am happy that you asked this question, vocational education is the one area which we want to promote within the general education system. Right now we are focusing on O level and A level education.  Some schools in the rural areas have vocational streams but we do not have enough infrastructure. Recently I had the discussion with the Fisheries and Agriculture minister on this very issue. We want to develop vocational course both in fisheries and agriculture. Our schools will introduce these courses and Department of Fisheries and Agriculture would provide the assistance in teaching these subjects because they have experts whom we can train to provide the teaching. We will plan the syllabus together and then decide a certificate standard; this is one development which we hope to see furthering very fast and yielding good results.

Right now, there seems to be little strain in relationship between India and Maldives. What is your sense of India’s relationship with Maldives?

India is not only the close friend of the Maldives; it is like a close relative and brother of Maldives. Historically, culturally, diplomatically and socially we have had strong relationship with India so we cannot afford to have relation strained with India. A lot of Maldivians come to India to get medical treatment, to obtain education, and a lot of the Maldivians are settled in sudden India to get education for their children, so these are very important relation and we cannot really afford to have anything which disrupts this tie.

I hope that we will be able to work out any difference that we have. I believe India is very matured democracy and similarly Maldives is very old country. I personally feel these relationships will not be disrupted because of the issues we face that have some immediate impact. Long standing relation will be strong, I believe foundation is still very strong, individual issues might disrupt temporarily but relationship is very strong,  I envision a bright and prosperous relationship between the two nations.